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Old 04-21-2007, 12:50 PM   #16
BlankenshipFP
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Not defending ROP here, but unless I'm missing something, I think josephdegroff's point isn't quite true: the insurance company still has to provide insurance coverage during that term, and the policyholder is in fact covered during that time period. So what they've had, in effect, is term life coverage for the cost of inflation (or the opportunity cost of the funds), which is likely not a good deal when compared to the cost of "normal" term, although your mileage will vary... If we had numbers for the ROP premiums to compare to normal term premiums we could do the math, but I think the outcome would be just like 1MO tells it - not a good deal in the long run.
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Old 04-21-2007, 01:07 PM   #17
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yea, in finances you can slice the onion many different ways. i think it still remains true that no matter which way you are slicing ... if you are looking for CHEAPEST UP FRONT or only need coverage for a defined and short period of time ... straight term should be your first choice. if you are looking for CHEAPEST OVER THE LONG HAUL then whole life (preferably participating) is your first choice.

if you are looking to play games, play the edges, second guess yourself, feel that life insurance is important cause your wife says so but you think she is a dufus, or a myriad other reasons that have nothing to do with protecting your income or estate, then you have universal or ROP or other gimmicky options.

p.s. i am speaking of pure insurance here, there may be legitimate reasons for SOME people to use insurance for other than pure insurance and if so, then universal variants (or term or whole life) may have additional uses.

p.p.s. it should go without saying, but the MOST IMPORTANT factor should always be the QUALITY of the company with which you are working. it is beyond folly to pay into a company for 25 years (or 55 years) only to find that you outlived your insurance company.
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disclaimer: "you didn't give me enough information to answer your question, so my answer might not be appropriate for you. in any case, don't take advice from me or anyone else on this board. it's not our life. it's not our money. you don't know who we are." "also, i am very arrogant. if your feelings were hurt in this message you probably need to get some thicker skin."

buy cheap term: www.i'm_a_dufus_for_clicking_here.com

Last edited by 1_more_opai : 04-21-2007 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 04-21-2007, 02:37 PM   #18
josephdegroff
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What I was meaning is that since roughly 2% of term claims actually pay out, in essence it would appear they are "borrowing" money from you interest free.
On the other hand I understand what it is you are saying and you are correct.

-Joe
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Old 04-21-2007, 06:29 PM   #19
Sturgbe
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sturgbe, please show me how this statement is true: "I will receive approximately 7% ROR at the end of my ROP term."

A straight 30-year level term ($250k) cost me $272.50 per year. For the ROP 30 year term it was $395/yr. The difference is $122.50 per year. Assuming I purchased the straight 30 year term for $272.50 and invested the $122.50, I would need that side investment to return 6.78% per year to just equal what I would get back from my ROP at the end of 30 years.

Like I stated..approximately 7%! You CAN"T find 6.78% GUARANTEED right now...period! Maybe in a few years, but not now.

So to me, I made perfect sense. For an extra $122.50 per year, why not guarantee approx. 7% ROI.

I understand it may be too hard to figure out for some of you. Just run the numbers yourself.
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:35 PM   #20
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Okay, here's how I see it:

With the ROP, you're paying a total of $11,850 over 30 years, and then you'll get that money back. During that period, the premiums invested at 7% would grow to $39,923, of which the insurance company pays you $11,850 back.

With the term, the net cost is the annual premium, or $272.50. Investing the difference at 7% brings you to a total of $12,381 from your side investment, which, incidentally is $500 more than your ROP refund.
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Old 04-22-2007, 09:24 AM   #21
1_more_opai
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a couple of quick points:

1. you are not GETTING 7% (or even your 6.78). you are getting the snake oil. this is when someone says you are getting something but you are getting something else. what you are truly getting is an imputed equivalent.

so, if you are making your decision on the fact that you wanted to MAKE some conservative return on those dollars, then i see where you are coming from. that said:

2. you most certainly COULD get BETTER than 6.78% GUARANTEED. in fact, today you could get 7.99% GUARANTEED (taxable equivalent yield) on a few available products (depending on your situation). also, keep in mind that "risk" is not an "all or nothing" equation.
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disclaimer: "you didn't give me enough information to answer your question, so my answer might not be appropriate for you. in any case, don't take advice from me or anyone else on this board. it's not our life. it's not our money. you don't know who we are." "also, i am very arrogant. if your feelings were hurt in this message you probably need to get some thicker skin."

buy cheap term: www.i'm_a_dufus_for_clicking_here.com
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:38 PM   #22
Sturgbe
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Blankenship, I do not follow your calculations.
Straight term was $272.50 per year. At the end of 30 years, I would have nothing (assuming I lived). So that money can not be investeed, it is lost. The ROP 30-year term was $395 per year, or a difference of $122.50 from the straight term. The $122.50 is only portion I am truely able to invest/save. Where did you get $39,923 and $500? $395 at 7% for 30 years is irrelevant. $272.50 at 7% means you don't have any insurance. Who cares what the insurance company makes off my $395 annual premium. I don't care if they made 25% annual return. These calculations do not and can not apply to our situation. You have to pay for the cost of insurance somewhere, these dollars can not be invested or saved.

At the end of 30 years, the ROP policy would give me back $11,850. The straight term would give me nothing! The difference of $122.50 invested or saved would need to yield 6.78% each year to return $11,850. They are giving me 6.78% at the end of 30 years based on the difference of premiums.

Your calculation where totally off. You can't invest the $272.50, that is the annaul (lost opportunity cost) of the annual straight term premium. And again, who care what the insurance company does with your annual premium of $395. Please provide an explanation to your calculations.

Opai:

I do receive 6.78%. My risk is liquidity and company insolvency. Please provide information on your taxable equivalent yield product that guarantees 7.99%.

"1. you are not GETTING 7% (or even your 6.78). you are getting the snake oil. this is when someone says you are getting something but you are getting something else. what you are truly getting is an imputed equivalent."
Isn't that what you are doing in point # 3. with your taxable equivalent yield???????


Also, be careful that you are not subjecting you client to AMT with your product advice, which would void any tax benefits.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:01 PM   #23
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Sturgbe - I'm very happy for you that you've found a product that is as fulfilling as ROP appears to be for you. I hope it works out well.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:16 PM   #24
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Blankenship,

Please do not take that avenue. I respect you and what you have to say. I wanted to see how and for what reason you came up with those calcualtions. I found that ROP worked for me in this particular situation. Again, there are many situations where it does not make sense. I would really like for you to explain how you came up with you calculations. Consumers that may visit this board may get the wrong idea about this type of product.
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:41 AM   #25
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I posted that message due to the tone of your response - if you're going to make statements like:
Quote:
Your calculation where totally off.

... don't expect a lot of good will from the target of your comments. I have no problem with discussing issues, but I don't care for your tone (or your spelling and grammar, for that matter).

The first paragraph of my post was not comparing the two policies. What I was illustrating was the economic benefit to the insurance company versus what you get back from them. The calculations are correct - whether or not they are germaine to your decision-making process is up to you.

The second paragraph illustrates the differential between the two policies and investing that difference, at a very low assumption of 7%, showing that you can do a little better by going with the straight term - even with the low assumption. The reason I say this is a low assumption is that we're talking about 30 years - a relatively long period of time in the investing world - throughout which you should be able to make considerably more than 7% even in a fairly conservative allocation. Again, the calculations are correct, you decide for yourself if the results are important to you.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:18 PM   #26
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Blankenship:
I apologize for my tone and lack of education.

The first illustration was correct but I was confused becuase it was absolutely not germaine to this topic...at all. With the second illustration, I stated approximately 7% (6.78%), so of cousre at 7% it would be $500 more than my ROP return.

I still do not understand why you and others try and compare the guaranteed side investment with equities or a conservative, non-guarnateed hypothetical return. You can not do better than 7% or 6.78% guaranteed right now. If you invested in a conservative portfolio, it is not guarnateed. If it is guaranteed, you are not getting 7% or 6.78%. You are at the mercy of the prevaling interest rate enviornment at the time you lock your money up, good or bad. Right now it is bad.

We are in somewhat of an inverted yield curve. In 2000, you could get 7% on a MYGA annuity for 10 years. Clients love the fact that they are still getting 7% on their money when the enviornment is only yielding about 5%. At the time, people were worried about locking up money for 10 years. Now they are receiving a huge +MVA to get out of these contracts.

A conservative portfolio is in the eye of the beholder. I do not consider 7% conservative right now, I consider it a luxury...especially without market risk and a guarantee.

I do not know what the interest rate enviornment will be in 5,10 or 20 years, so I felt I was geeting a good return on my side fund. But for some people to say it is a rip off product or that you can do better, shows how little they know or want to know about a product. If you can do better, tell the clients you guarantee it!

I did not spell check this Blank, so I hope you do not get sick reading it.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:09 PM   #27
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Sturgbe,

Nice forethought on getting those locked-in rates, especially how low rates dropped between 2002-2005 (and even comparitively today).
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Old 04-27-2007, 01:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dru$
Twice, during a financial hardship, I borrowed money against life insurance policies (one is a whole life, the other is a universal life policy). Apart from the impact on my death benefit, is there any reason to pay those loans back?

If you don't care about your family's well-being in case you die, then there's really no point to pay these life insurance loans back. At least it doesn't get reported to the credit bureau or affect your credit score. But if you cancel the policy or move the cash value into a variable annuity, you will pay income taxes on these loans. If you die, your beneficiary will only get the death benefit (minus any missed premiums and loans taken out of the policy). All the cash value will be kept by the insurance company, unless otherwise stated in the policy.

I believe cash value life insurance are complete ripoffs. If you want to protect your family's income in case you die, you should get a 20 or 30 year term insurance. If you want to save for the long term, then open a Roth IRA (if you qualify) or a Traditional IRA and invest into mutual funds. That way you are renting wealth and building wealth at the same time. If you die during the term, your beneficiary will get death benefit and all your investments. If you approach the end of the term, then you need to evaluate your financial needs. In 20-30 years, you really don't know how your investments will perform, but at least you will have less financial obligations.

Right now, you probably have kids, have a mortgage, and don't have much money saved, so loss of life will be financially devastating for the family. This is when you need income protection the most. As times goes on, kids grow up and move out of the house, mortgage is paid off, and you are retiring. So you better have lots of money saved, but the need for life insurance declines.
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Last edited by obe231 : 04-27-2007 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 04-27-2007, 02:19 PM   #29
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I'd love to see the policy he compared in the blog analysis. I noticed that it it wasn't mentioned that by year 20, the whole life would paid up forever with an INCREASING death benefit and no more premiums due.

Also, if you did continue to pay into it, the age 60 cash values would be closer to $55,000, not $40k and the death benefit of the whole life would be around $130,000. At age 80, the cash values would be about $176,000, where in the example, he sates that cash values equal $100,000 at age 100. At age 100, the death benefit and cash values would be closer to $450,000. As far as the cost analysis goes, the death benefit at age 80 is about $225,000. So, to be fair, you would have to take out a $200,000 20 year term at age 60 to receive a comparable benefit. This would raise your term costs from his stated $1500 per year to $2500 per year for a cost of $50000 and this assumes the same health as the primary insured 30 years ago. And oh yeah, you will have no death benefit at age 81 with the term option. "Options" are the key here, because proper planning is all about options later in life.

Also ignored is the waiver of premium feature that will continue to pay into cash values of a whole life (and yes, you can spend it...it is yours) should you become disabled and your invest the rest strategy falls to pieces due to lost income. There is no other savings vehicle that will contribute funds for you if you become disabled. To make the cost calculations remotely even, you would also have to factor in the costs of a comparable disability insurance policy that would equate to the same savings ability to age 65.

And to make this clear, whole life is not an investment...it is insurance. Comparing to investments is a folly. It ensures that you will have a death benefit. It insures your benefit will keep pace with inflation. It ensures you will be able to continue to save despite a disablity. It ensures that you can increase your death benefit at a 1:3 premium to benefit ratio using your right to overfund the policy and purchase paid-up additions regardless of your health. PUA ensures that someone diagnosed with cancer can achieve a ~300% annual rate of return on excess premiums in each of the years leading up to their demise in the form of PUAs, which will be included in the benefit for the family. by It ensures that will be able to pass assets in the most efficient manner, and also allows you to do so later in life by transferring investment assets into it. It ensures that you will receive a positive rate of return on your money (safe money) guaranteed. It ensures you will never be turned down for coverage due to health changes. So, if any portion of your portfolio is allocated to conservative investments, then it makes perfect sense to make a whole life part of your overall porfolio and be more aggressive with other outside investments.

Not to mention the fact that the opportunity cost of your whole life premiums are included in the cash value calculations. To be completely fair, you would have to calculate the opportunity cost of the premiums paid for term at an assumed rate of return to determine the true cost of the term premiums. This is due to the fact that the portion of premiums you are paying for term could also be invested, but in the end they bring you nothing. What the whole life premiums provide that the term premiums do not, is the permanent life insurance benefit.

So, have you quantified all of these benefits of a whole life in your "buy term and invest the rest" calculations? Until you do, you are simply reiterating an unproven and grossly misunderstood mantra.

Not really cut and dried, is it?

Last edited by pricespector : 04-27-2007 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 04-27-2007, 04:31 PM   #30
josephdegroff
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OBE:

From one licensed professional to another (as you allege to be), would you mind explaining this quote from your blog?
Quote:
For example, the agent may say that in some time in the future, your life insurance is paid up and that you don't have to pay the premiums anymore. That is absolutely false. If you do not pay your premiums, the insurance company will use your cash value to pay it. When the cash value hits zero, you will get a letter saying that you are in danger of losing your life insurance and that you must pay back all cash value and all missed premiums. If you don't, you will lose coverage and will pay income taxes on the loan amount.

That agent who "only cares about his commissions" actually was right in saying that a policy pays for itself at a point in the future. They can and they do and if you say that they don't you are either very deceived or are lying--which is it? Additionally, if a client used the cash value to pay missed premiums when their cash value DOES run out they positively DO NOT have to pay back "missed premiums" because NO PREMIUMS WERE MISSED! And they CERTAINLY don't have to pay back the cash value!!!! As a side note for any consumers out there, this is not exactly what would happen. If one of my clients were unable to pay their premiums I would talk to them and see what was wrong. If there was a severe tragedy and they would NEVER be able to afford the policy again (very extreme example, but still) we would call the policy "Paid up." With paid up insurance, you don't have to pay any longer (because it is paid up) and that "paid up" amount will buy a certain chunk of insurance that will still be yours. Not only will it still be yours, but it will grow just like it has previously (not as fast as a rate, but will grow nonetheless). Also, if the problem was a job change and the problems were only temporary, we COULD use the cash value to pay the premiums for a time until the income was back up to its previous level. At that point, the client can choose to pay the cash value back, or choose not to. If they don't, it will just come off the death benefit upon their death.


-Joe
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For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. (Romans 3&6:23)

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

Last edited by josephdegroff : 04-27-2007 at 04:40 PM.
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