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Old 04-28-2007, 03:35 AM   #31
josephdegroff
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I forgot another option for the client; if the money situation was that bad that they would never be able to afford premiums again, they may just choose to surrender their policy and pocket the cash value (which may not be a bad idea).

-Joe
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. (Romans 3&6:23)

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)
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Old 04-28-2007, 09:47 AM   #32
1_more_opai
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thanks for the posts price and joe. great points and i am pleased that i didnt have to type that much in response.

on another forum where OBE posted, i "wondered" if he was an out of work Primerican. what he is spouting is the limited information they all get through their affiliation. it is kinda sad to beat up their posts when they do this kinda stuff, but when you put yourself out as an expert, you need to be able to back up your position.

good job guys.
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disclaimer: "you didn't give me enough information to answer your question, so my answer might not be appropriate for you. in any case, don't take advice from me or anyone else on this board. it's not our life. it's not our money. you don't know who we are." "also, i am very arrogant. if your feelings were hurt in this message you probably need to get some thicker skin."

buy cheap term: www.i'm_a_dufus_for_clicking_here.com
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:09 AM   #33
gandhis
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Strugbe, someone alluded to consumers reading this board. Well, I am one of the consumers.
I am running similar calculations for ROP and my numbers are coming out similar to Strugbe's. My quick question is
THE PAYMENTS AT THE END OF AN ROP TERM ARE NON-TAXABLE. RIGHT?
For example, in your illustration below, you get 395*30 = $11,850 back. It seems you have factored the tax-free aspect of ROP growth when you mention 7% growth. What tax bracket did you assume?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturgbe
A straight 30-year level term ($250k) cost me $272.50 per year. For the ROP 30 year term it was $395/yr. The difference is $122.50 per year. Assuming I purchased the straight 30 year term for $272.50 and invested the $122.50, I would need that side investment to return 6.78% per year to just equal what I would get back from my ROP at the end of 30 years.

Like I stated..approximately 7%! You CAN"T find 6.78% GUARANTEED right now...period! Maybe in a few years, but not now.

So to me, I made perfect sense. For an extra $122.50 per year, why not guarantee approx. 7% ROI.

Last edited by gandhis : 04-30-2007 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:34 AM   #34
1_more_opai
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wow, if someone is still looking at ROP, i did a terrible job explaining it.

oh well.

since you are going to buy it anyway, here is your answer. when you say "THE PAYMENTS AT THE END OF AN ROP TERM ARE NON-TAXABLE. RIGHT?" i assume you mean at the end of the term, the money you get back from the insurance company.

well, here is a hint: ROP - it is a Return Of your Premiums. you have already paid taxes on your income from which you paid the premium. ergo, you are only getting your previously paid premiums back. you dont have to pay taxes on this stuff twice.

when you buy a coffee pot from walmart, but you take it back for a REFUND, they Return your Purchase price. they do not charge you taxes on the REFUND. this is KEY. it proves that you are not EARNING anything. if you were, the govt would tax you on it! if you bought a coffee pot at walmart for $10 and returned it and got a refund of $20 you would have a taxable GAIN of $10 and would pay taxes on it. since you arent paying any taxes on your ROP then clearly you are not getting any gain.

p.s. i have to say this cause it is driving me crazy! you are NOT getting this interest rate nor anything like it!!!
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disclaimer: "you didn't give me enough information to answer your question, so my answer might not be appropriate for you. in any case, don't take advice from me or anyone else on this board. it's not our life. it's not our money. you don't know who we are." "also, i am very arrogant. if your feelings were hurt in this message you probably need to get some thicker skin."

buy cheap term: www.i'm_a_dufus_for_clicking_here.com

Last edited by 1_more_opai : 04-30-2007 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:32 AM   #35
gandhis
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_more_opai
if someone is still looking at ROP, i did a terrible job explaining it.
Either that, or I did a terrible job of understanding.

Here is what I have understood.
We are discussing a 250k 30 year term policy.
Regular premium - $272.50
ROP Premium - $395.00
----------------------------
ROP cost - $122.50 per year
ROP Benefit - 395*30 = $11,850.00 at end of 30 years

As you explained eloquently, the $11,850 is tax free.

Now assume you buy a regular term and invest the $122.50 per year yourself. The first 122.50 will be locked in for 30 years, the second 122.50 will be locked in for 29 years and so on.
If you gain 8.13% per year (compounded annually) on each of the 30 investments, they will grow to $15,367 at the end of 30 years. Out of these 15,367.00 your principal is $122.5*30 = $3,675.
So your interest portion is $15,367-$3,675 = $11,693.
If you are in 30% tax bracker, your in-hand gain is $11693*0.7 + $3,675 = $11,860.

Summary:
The ROP gives $11,850 guranteed in hand at the end of 30 years.
You will need a investments at guranteed 8.13% to give you $11,860 in hand at the end of 30 years if you choose to get the regular Term insurance.
Both give the exact same insurance protection.

What am I missing?
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:47 AM   #36
BlankenshipFP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandhis
If you are in 30% tax bracker, your in-hand gain is $11693*0.7 + $3,675 = $11,860.

if you invested in a tax-efficient investment, this could be a capital gain, taxed at the 10% rate...
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IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).

Last edited by BlankenshipFP : 04-30-2007 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:09 PM   #37
josephdegroff
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1MO, from what I can gather, the cost of the term insurance is a being viewed as a sunk cost.

-Joe
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. (Romans 3&6:23)

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:09 PM   #38
1_more_opai
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blank, are you saying that the ROP has a "cap gain"?
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disclaimer: "you didn't give me enough information to answer your question, so my answer might not be appropriate for you. in any case, don't take advice from me or anyone else on this board. it's not our life. it's not our money. you don't know who we are." "also, i am very arrogant. if your feelings were hurt in this message you probably need to get some thicker skin."

buy cheap term: www.i'm_a_dufus_for_clicking_here.com
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Old 04-30-2007, 01:46 PM   #39
BlankenshipFP
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<erroneous post eliminated>
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IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).

Last edited by BlankenshipFP : 04-30-2007 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 01:50 PM   #40
1_more_opai
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okee dokee - creative finance 732 (vs 101).

never let it be said that financial planning is "easy". the way some people cut numbers in order to attempt to prove their point is astounding.
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1MO

disclaimer: "you didn't give me enough information to answer your question, so my answer might not be appropriate for you. in any case, don't take advice from me or anyone else on this board. it's not our life. it's not our money. you don't know who we are." "also, i am very arrogant. if your feelings were hurt in this message you probably need to get some thicker skin."

buy cheap term: www.i'm_a_dufus_for_clicking_here.com
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Old 04-30-2007, 01:53 PM   #41
BlankenshipFP
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I'm not following you, 1MO - d0h! I just got it...

The poster is investing in an interest-bearing instrument, not in a tax-efficient, gains-oriented investment (as I would recommend)... Geez. Okay, I was blinded there for a minute...
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IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
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Old 04-30-2007, 02:34 PM   #42
Sturgbe
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Using the same numbers as earlier, why don't we just assume that the straight 30-year term plan is purchased.

We will pay an annual premium of $272.50 per year for 30 years. If we are still a live after 30-years, we spent $8,175 in total ($272.50 x's 30). We have nothing of value at this point. The policy is gone and there is no cash value.

If you purchased the 30-year ROP for $395 per year, at the end of the 30-years, you would receive a check for $11,850 (tax free of course).

To be fair, the ROP was costing an additional $122.50 per year. What if I purcahsed the straight 30-year term for $272.50 and invested the difference of $122.50 on my own. I don't want to expose this to 'market' risk because I am conservative. So I need to find a guarantee. I also need it to turn into $11,850 at the end of 30 years.

What rate of return do I need this extra premium ($122.50) to earn to turn it into $11,850 30 years later?... It needs to earn 6.78% NON-TAXABLE to have the same value at the end of the 30 years.

If you can find that 6.78% guaranteed,
non-taxable savings/investment product, I recommend you go that way. If not, the ROP may be provide a better option. It did for me.
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Old 05-01-2007, 01:41 PM   #43
gandhis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_more_opai
okee dokee - creative finance 732 (vs 101).

never let it be said that financial planning is "easy". the way some people cut numbers in order to attempt to prove their point is astounding.

1MO, I am a customer who is going to sink his hard-earned money into a term policy in near future. Before I do that, I need to learn which one is better. I am not trying to prove a point because I DO NOT HAVE A POINT yet.

So far, the summary is (as Strugbe said), if you can find a guranteed investment that gives a return of 6.78 post-tax, TERM is best. If not, ROP is best.
Is there any objective / factual criticism of this conclusion?
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:33 PM   #44
josephdegroff
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Gandhis,

Your question is not directed towards myself, but I'm going to hop in anyway; I trust you shan't mind.

A term policy is great; in fact, there is nothing wrong with term insurance AND when people like Sturgbe view things as he does, ROP might even have its place (I repeat, when viewed in the manner he is speaking). Now, ought you only buy term or ROP and invest the rest? Let's consider a few things: Life insurance is not an investment. Similarly, investments ARE NOT life insurance. All the time figures are given that "at the end of your term your insurance will be zero dollars but given that you have invested the difference at a 12% ROR, you now have $700,000 tucked away to use and are now self-insured." There are a few things wrong with this mantra: for one, the people that say this most always complain of the high rates of permanent insurance and how the client can't afford the premiums. Amazingly though, these people DO have enough to invest the difference. For another, even if a person DID get 12% every year and a large amount of cash is sitting in an account for insurance reasons only, $700,000 in 30 years does not have near the purchasing power of the same amount today. Furthermore, that $700,000 is going to get taxed before it arrives into the hands of the beneficiary. Still further, someone that has invested as well as the "buy term, invest the rest" crowd champion is going to need some estate planning done later in life. Should I bother mentioning that life insurance is used to help plan the distribution of a person's estate in a tax-efficient manner? Or that when someone is 60 and planning their estate, their premiums are slightly more than if they had purchased a policy when they were 20? And often times, if a person has done as well as being mentioned, they usually donate to a few causes. This can be done wonderfully with permanent insurance. You see, the need for permanent insurance rarely, if ever, "goes away" and is cheaper than term (or ROP) in the long run. Given the tax favorable status life insurance proceeds have, it's an EXTREMELY beneficial and PROFITABLE tool to the people who own it.
I know this wasn't your question exactly, but here's what my point is: if you are going to invest your money into a policy and you don't know what to get, purchase some permanent coverage. Perhaps you can't afford your entire need in whole life-and that's okay-but you can do a mix of term and permanent and put yourself on a schedule to convert over. Talk to any successful agent that has been in the business for a number of years and I am sure they will tell you they don't have many clients regretting the purchase of permanent insurance, but they DO have many clients regretting the reliance on term.

In conclusion, and to reiterate myself, if you can afford the extra premium, go with Whole Life, you won't go wrong.

-Joe
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. (Romans 3&6:23)

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

Last edited by josephdegroff : 05-01-2007 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:52 PM   #45
1_more_opai
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gandhis, i think this is an excellent question that you ask.

i suppose that if you were looking for a GUARANTEE and a GUARANTEED low interest rate to boot that you COULD make a legitimate argument to this issue - the use of ROP.

however, this is just SOME of the stuff that should be true for you if you are going to make this selection. if ANY of it is NOT true for you, then ROP is a bad choice.

1. all you need now or in the future is term.
2. you will not need any additional life coverage after the expected expiration of the term.
3. you will keep the ROP policy for the ENTIRE length of the term. ie, you cannot buy 30 year term yet cancel it at 25 years.
4. you should be either:
--- fully funding every other tax advantaged account that you can - to the MAX. Roth, IRA, 401K or similar variants.
--- have an asset allocation model that is exactly "light" on the cash equivalency that will be supplanted by the ROP policy factored for inflation and for growth.
5. be in at LEAST the marginal tax bracket of 28% or more (preferably 33%)
6. i decline to Sturgbe when he says that: you need to be in virtually perfect health (post 13).
7. i decline to Sturgbe when he says that: the ROP has to be in excess of a 20 year term (post 13).

hope this helps a little.
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disclaimer: "you didn't give me enough information to answer your question, so my answer might not be appropriate for you. in any case, don't take advice from me or anyone else on this board. it's not our life. it's not our money. you don't know who we are." "also, i am very arrogant. if your feelings were hurt in this message you probably need to get some thicker skin."

buy cheap term: www.i'm_a_dufus_for_clicking_here.com
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